BOV: From design to implementation

**Dave Sutton** · 22nd April 2007, 20:42

Quote: (Originally Posted by schford)

Like I said people have died not having independant bailout.

But you've not heard about the successful bailouts using a combination of onboard and offboard gas either.... you only hear about the guys who did not have anythign to breathe.

Flip the mirror around: What's *bad* about having access to your internal gas? What's the *downside*?

Dave

**dz3866** · 22nd April 2007, 20:53

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton)

That's a fine *opinion*. But it's just one opinion. There is far more than one way to skin this cat. Give credit to the advanced methods that advanced users select. "Basic Methods" are just that: Dumbed down basic methods used to train large volumes of variable quality students in the most basic way to get along with a rebreather. It's not the end-all method. Do you carry three bailout gas systems (trimix, nitrox, and 02) all accessable open circuit? I do.... it's just that "some of it" happens to be hidden inside my rig, that's all.

Gas is Gas.... get OC access to it. More is better than less.

Best,

Dave

Dave I have a lot of respect for your experience, but to say that having bailout for dives to 130ft is a dumbed down method, is a little harsh, from your other post you say you dive your MK-15 with no external bailout to 130ft because this rig is the best to you, but some may read this and think that you make sense and apply this to say an IDA, a kiss ect... but a blown hose or total loss of diluent on one of these units (with a newly trained diver) at 130ft means trouble. My point is because of the respect you and others recieve because of your experience may lead a new Rebreather diver to apply some of your much more advanced methods, so maybe mentioning (IN BOLD) that what you do is not for the beginner, because this site has a lot of members, so we have to think about who might be reading. Dave.

***schford*** · 22nd April 2007, 21:00

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton)

.... you only hear about the guys who did not have anythign to breathe.
Dave

No I have heard about some one who counted on being able to use his inboard as part of his bailout strategy and who got caught up in the incident pit and died.

Which is why in my article I stress the need to carry sufficient amount of bailout and to bail if some thing goes wrong with your unit.

To recommend anything else is courting disaster if something goes wrong and is irresponsible to promote.

***schford*** · 22nd April 2007, 21:03

Quote: (Originally Posted by dz3866)

.. but a blown hose or total loss of diluent on one of these units (with a newly trained diver) at 130ft means trouble.

Well made points Dave, my only comment is that....

For an experienced person it could mean death as easily as inexperienced - if you dont have bailout and you need it - does not matter if it is 130 or 330 feet.

decoweenie · 22nd April 2007, 21:11

Quote: (Originally Posted by schford)

To recommend anything else is courting disaster if something goes wrong and is irresponsible to promote.

Stuart, someone has to be the first since the rest of the training agencies are teaching adequate bail-out...

As mentioned, I have tested students to have very RMV (i.e. up to 80 lpm) when stressed. Wonder how long the on-board gas will last ?

Some quick downside of having lots of connections to on-boards are 1) introducing more failure points with each connection, and 2) increase the chance of a stressed diver selecting and breathing the wrong gas (i.e. this is one of the reason KJ doesn't like to plumb Whitey valve to the O2 side on the MK-15, for example).

Gilles · 22nd April 2007, 22:56

There's training agency standards, used to accoubt for "variable competency". Then there highly skilled,disciplined, and rock solid competent, which is a very interesting topic I hope to learn about.

A compromise to safety or the number of options, has never been yet suggested. There's a degree here I hope to belong to someday. I want to avoid a mantra that is meant for the masses. I get enough of that from my local BSAC club I need to dive with.

**Dave Sutton** · 22nd April 2007, 23:33

[quote=Gilles;110736]There's training agency standards, used to accoubt for "variable competency"./quote]

And noplace more so than the variable competency of the instructors... never mind the students. It's all done to the lowest common denominator. That's just the way it is, folks. Some people need to stay at that level. Others will push to a new level. That's *variable* human nature.

Remember that "Oceana" was the nation ruled by "Big Brother" in Ninteen Eighty Four.... I trust that *our* oceans are never so controlled and that we are all allowed to freely choose the nature of our diving methods. "Big Brother" may hand out the cards, but thinking men use their brains to question the staus quo and to make improvements.

Nobody is suggesting that the average diver use on board gas for all (or most) of the bailout needs. Anyone who has read this thread and thinks that does not need diving lessons, they need *reading comprehension* lessons. The issue is that ALL GAS can, by some divers, be incorporated into their plan for bailout. Since MY method is to use air (or nitrox) onboard as well as the 02, it's ASSUMED that this gas will only be used while on DECOMPRESSION (where *duh!* the diver will be relaxed and hanging at a low RMV), and that the OFFBOARD trimix bottle will be *adequately sized* to be both usable as the normal diluent suppy AND as whatever bailout volume the diver sees fit to use. If you have read *anything* differently into this thread, go back and try again.

Take this, for what it's worth: I'm NOT going to ignore nearly 50 cubic feet of perfectly usable deco gas inside my rig when I need to bail. It may not be all of my bail gas (but in shallow water with no overhead environment and no deco it *may* be..), but I'm NOT going to pretend it's not there and I AM going to be able to breathe it open circuit somehow. You want to do differently? Be my guest. Carry more gas bottles. I've seen far more divers in distress in currents trying to swim all that crap back to the boat than I have ever seen without enough gas. I'm all for streamlining and sharing resources. Actual mileage may vary.

Best,

Dave

**Dave Sutton** · 22nd April 2007, 23:44

Quote: (Originally Posted by dz3866)

a blown hose or total loss of diluent on one of these units (with a newly trained diver) at 130ft means trouble.

Huh? Only if he wants to continue a deeper descent... once there loss of all diluent means zippo to me other than that I am calling the dive. What use is diluent when you are ascending and have 02 and a working loop?

Maybe by "Newly Trained" you mean "Inadequately Trained". Yep, those folks better carry enough open circuit SCUBA gas so's they can leave the rig at home...

. Maybe for them on that day, it's sensible. Heck's it's probably always* sensible. But that's not the experts method, sorry.....

Maybe we ought to start an "experts forum" by invitation where we can discuss expert methods without offending the sensibilities of the "rebreathers for dummies" folks?

Dunno where we get these ideas.... Diluent? We need it for *descent*. Once there it's just extra. My Mark-15 spheres are usually jacked to 300 BAR.... meaning that I am carrying 60 cubic feet of gas, split between 02 and diluent. For a 130 foot dive that diluent is air. I dunno, but I bet I can do my deco from my 130 foot dives with that gas OC no sweat. I see guys all the time deeper than that with a single side slung 40 of some sort of gas for their bailout... who has more gas accessable open circuit and who has a better selection? Who is to say *where* I carry that gas? Rebreather cops who want to SEE IT outside of the shell of my rig? Give me a break...

Dave

(Been to over 200 with an OMG 02 rig and a *spare air* for diluent, dig?)

(and no, DON'T do this at home...)

**dz3866** · 23rd April 2007, 00:28

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton)

Huh? Only if he wants to continue a deeper descent... once there loss of all diluent means zippo to me other than that I am calling the dive. What use is diluent when you are ascending and have 02 and a working loop?

Maybe by "Newly Trained" you mean "Inadequately Trained". Yep, those folks better carry enough open circuit SCUBA gas so's they can leave the rig at home...

. Maybe for them on that day, it's sensible. Heck's it's probably always* sensible. But that's not the experts method, sorry.....

Maybe we ought to start an "experts forum" by invitation where we can discuss expert methods without offending the sensibilities of the "rebreathers for dummies" folks?

Dunno where we get these ideas.... Diluent? We need it for *descent*. Once there it's just extra. My Mark-15 spheres are usually jacked to 300 BAR.... meaning that I am carrying 60 cubic feet of gas, split between 02 and diluent. For a 130 foot dive that diluent is air. I dunno, but I bet I can do my deco from my 130 foot dives with that gas OC no sweat. I see guys all the time deeper than that with a single side slung 40 of some sort of gas for their bailout... who has more gas accessable open circuit and who has a better selection? Who is to say *where* I carry that gas? Rebreather cops who want to SEE IT outside of the shell of my rig? Give me a break...

Dave

(Been to over 200 with an OMG 02 rig and a *spare air* for diluent, dig?)

(and no, DON'T do this at home...)

man Dave for someone who on another thread says he wont post a report and pics because he is being attacked, you sure dish it out!! you say inadequately trained, rebreathers for Dummies folks, these people are getting the only training available, for the kiss lets say (ANDI) and now the rEVO (ANDI) you promote a rebreather and say no one will get one without training (ANDI) then you dog the people for having the training that you know wont change to your way overnight, Make up your mind you sound like a hypocrite

**Dave Sutton** · 23rd April 2007, 00:43

Quote: (Originally Posted by dz3866)

man Dave for someone who on another thread says he wont post a report and pics because he is being attacked, you sure dish it out!!

I'm tired. Give me a break. One subject has nothing to do with another.

OFF TOPIC, but to answer...

Bailout: Divers ought to be able to access *all* of their gas open circuit. This includes their onboard gas. Why not? This is a no brainer. AP Valves sets up their rigs with an auto-air for this reason, for the diluent anyhow. It takes one quick-connect hose to make that true for the 02 also. I dunno why anyone could disagree. Want to disagree? Next subject.

Training: Much of the "industry" training is dumbed down. Everyone knows this. It has to be, otherwise it would exclude a number of people who, if trained under a simple system, will perform adequately. Making it too complex and too expert weeds out too many folks. This is the same in many other areas, not just diving. The basics need to be the main part of the training, the rig-specific stuff is second.

Expert techniques: You suggested that I keep expert techniques to myself as use of these methods by others is irresponsible. I disagree. folks are going to figure it out one way or another. So be it.

Rebreather specific training: There is NO REASON that each rebreather course needs to cover the core modules of PPO2 theory, etc. There is NO REASON why a simple crossover coure from one mCCR to another shuld take more than half a day *if the diver is WELL TRAINED in the basics to begin with*. I suspect that the latter is often not true.

rEvo: Great rig. Dunno why folks are more worried about how I got mine as compared to how I find it to dive. The subject of "how I got mine" is of no value to anyone else... the subjct of "what is it like" is of interest to many. It's hard to be polite when you're being given shit. I always try....

Any controversy here? Don't mean to make one up.

Gonna crash....

Dave

22nd April 2007, 20:42	#21 (permalink)
Dave Sutton Diveshop of Horrors Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss MK 15.X rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Narragansett, Rhode Island and Hackettstown, New Jersey Posts: 2,689	Re: BOV: From design to implementation Quote: (Originally Posted by schford) Like I said people have died not having independant bailout. But you've not heard about the successful bailouts using a combination of onboard and offboard gas either.... you only hear about the guys who did not have anythign to breathe. Flip the mirror around: What's bad about having access to your internal gas? What's the downside? Dave __________________ "Changes in Lattitudes, Changes in Attitudes, Nothing remains quite the same".... www.nobubblediving.com
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22nd April 2007, 20:53	#22 (permalink)
dz3866 zboy Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Join Date: May 2005 Location: US California Posts: 147	Re: BOV: From design to implementation Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton) That's a fine opinion. But it's just one opinion. There is far more than one way to skin this cat. Give credit to the advanced methods that advanced users select. "Basic Methods" are just that: Dumbed down basic methods used to train large volumes of variable quality students in the most basic way to get along with a rebreather. It's not the end-all method. Do you carry three bailout gas systems (trimix, nitrox, and 02) all accessable open circuit? I do.... it's just that "some of it" happens to be hidden inside my rig, that's all. Gas is Gas.... get OC access to it. More is better than less. Best, Dave Dave I have a lot of respect for your experience, but to say that having bailout for dives to 130ft is a dumbed down method, is a little harsh, from your other post you say you dive your MK-15 with no external bailout to 130ft because this rig is the best to you, but some may read this and think that you make sense and apply this to say an IDA, a kiss ect... but a blown hose or total loss of diluent on one of these units (with a newly trained diver) at 130ft means trouble. My point is because of the respect you and others recieve because of your experience may lead a new Rebreather diver to apply some of your much more advanced methods, so maybe mentioning (IN BOLD) that what you do is not for the beginner, because this site has a lot of members, so we have to think about who might be reading. Dave.
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22nd April 2007, 21:00	#23 (permalink)
*schford* Despotic Overlord Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 3,687	Re: BOV: From design to implementation Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton) .... you only hear about the guys who did not have anythign to breathe. Dave No I have heard about some one who counted on being able to use his inboard as part of his bailout strategy and who got caught up in the incident pit and died. Which is why in my article I stress the need to carry sufficient amount of bailout and to bail if some thing goes wrong with your unit. To recommend anything else is courting disaster if something goes wrong and is irresponsible to promote. __________________ Bailout and Kit Management account for Murphy's Law The only bad question is one you did not ask and later wish you had. Use of Rebreather World is subject to the Rebreather World Terms & Conditions of Use
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22nd April 2007, 21:03	#24 (permalink)
*schford* Despotic Overlord Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 3,687	Re: BOV: From design to implementation Quote: (Originally Posted by dz3866) .. but a blown hose or total loss of diluent on one of these units (with a newly trained diver) at 130ft means trouble. Well made points Dave, my only comment is that.... For an experienced person it could mean death as easily as inexperienced - if you dont have bailout and you need it - does not matter if it is 130 or 330 feet. __________________ Bailout and Kit Management account for Murphy's Law The only bad question is one you did not ask and later wish you had. Use of Rebreather World is subject to the Rebreather World Terms & Conditions of Use
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22nd April 2007, 21:11	#25 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,510	Re: BOV: From design to implementation Quote: (Originally Posted by schford) To recommend anything else is courting disaster if something goes wrong and is irresponsible to promote. Stuart, someone has to be the first since the rest of the training agencies are teaching adequate bail-out... As mentioned, I have tested students to have very RMV (i.e. up to 80 lpm) when stressed. Wonder how long the on-board gas will last ? Some quick downside of having lots of connections to on-boards are 1) introducing more failure points with each connection, and 2) increase the chance of a stressed diver selecting and breathing the wrong gas (i.e. this is one of the reason KJ doesn't like to plumb Whitey valve to the O2 side on the MK-15, for example). __________________ "...after a while you get bored offering advice to a bull that like to keep butting the fence with its head rather than walking through the open gate..." - Rebreather World PM
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22nd April 2007, 22:56	#26 (permalink)
Gilles Worship the feminine Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Den Haag (Netherlands) Posts: 762	Re: BOV: From design to implementation There's training agency standards, used to accoubt for "variable competency". Then there highly skilled,disciplined, and rock solid competent, which is a very interesting topic I hope to learn about. A compromise to safety or the number of options, has never been yet suggested. There's a degree here I hope to belong to someday. I want to avoid a mantra that is meant for the masses. I get enough of that from my local BSAC club I need to dive with. __________________ Gilles http://www.dirrebreather.com
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22nd April 2007, 23:33	#27 (permalink)
Dave Sutton Diveshop of Horrors Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss MK 15.X rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Narragansett, Rhode Island and Hackettstown, New Jersey Posts: 2,689	Re: BOV: From design to implementation [quote=Gilles;110736]There's training agency standards, used to accoubt for "variable competency"./quote] And noplace more so than the variable competency of the instructors... never mind the students. It's all done to the lowest common denominator. That's just the way it is, folks. Some people need to stay at that level. Others will push to a new level. That's variable human nature. Remember that "Oceana" was the nation ruled by "Big Brother" in Ninteen Eighty Four.... I trust that our oceans are never so controlled and that we are all allowed to freely choose the nature of our diving methods. "Big Brother" may hand out the cards, but thinking men use their brains to question the staus quo and to make improvements. Nobody is suggesting that the average diver use on board gas for all (or most) of the bailout needs. Anyone who has read this thread and thinks that does not need diving lessons, they need reading comprehension lessons. The issue is that ALL GAS can, by some divers, be incorporated into their plan for bailout. Since MY method is to use air (or nitrox) onboard as well as the 02, it's ASSUMED that this gas will only be used while on DECOMPRESSION (where duh! the diver will be relaxed and hanging at a low RMV), and that the OFFBOARD trimix bottle will be adequately sized to be both usable as the normal diluent suppy AND as whatever bailout volume the diver sees fit to use. If you have read anything differently into this thread, go back and try again. Take this, for what it's worth: I'm NOT going to ignore nearly 50 cubic feet of perfectly usable deco gas inside my rig when I need to bail. It may not be all of my bail gas (but in shallow water with no overhead environment and no deco it may be..), but I'm NOT going to pretend it's not there and I AM going to be able to breathe it open circuit somehow. You want to do differently? Be my guest. Carry more gas bottles. I've seen far more divers in distress in currents trying to swim all that crap back to the boat than I have ever seen without enough gas. I'm all for streamlining and sharing resources. Actual mileage may vary. Best, Dave __________________ "Changes in Lattitudes, Changes in Attitudes, Nothing remains quite the same".... www.nobubblediving.com Last edited by Dave Sutton : 22nd April 2007 at 23:51.
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22nd April 2007, 23:44	#28 (permalink)
Dave Sutton Diveshop of Horrors Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss MK 15.X rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Narragansett, Rhode Island and Hackettstown, New Jersey Posts: 2,689	Re: BOV: From design to implementation Quote: (Originally Posted by dz3866) a blown hose or total loss of diluent on one of these units (with a newly trained diver) at 130ft means trouble. Huh? Only if he wants to continue a deeper descent... once there loss of all diluent means zippo to me other than that I am calling the dive. What use is diluent when you are ascending and have 02 and a working loop? Maybe by "Newly Trained" you mean "Inadequately Trained". Yep, those folks better carry enough open circuit SCUBA gas so's they can leave the rig at home... . Maybe for them on that day, it's sensible. Heck's it's probably always* sensible. But that's not the experts method, sorry..... Maybe we ought to start an "experts forum" by invitation where we can discuss expert methods without offending the sensibilities of the "rebreathers for dummies" folks? Dunno where we get these ideas.... Diluent? We need it for descent. Once there it's just extra. My Mark-15 spheres are usually jacked to 300 BAR.... meaning that I am carrying 60 cubic feet of gas, split between 02 and diluent. For a 130 foot dive that diluent is air. I dunno, but I bet I can do my deco from my 130 foot dives with that gas OC no sweat. I see guys all the time deeper than that with a single side slung 40 of some sort of gas for their bailout... who has more gas accessable open circuit and who has a better selection? Who is to say where I carry that gas? Rebreather cops who want to SEE IT outside of the shell of my rig? Give me a break... Dave (Been to over 200 with an OMG 02 rig and a spare air for diluent, dig?) (and no, DON'T do this at home...) __________________ "Changes in Lattitudes, Changes in Attitudes, Nothing remains quite the same".... www.nobubblediving.com Last edited by Dave Sutton : 22nd April 2007 at 23:54.
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23rd April 2007, 00:28	#29 (permalink)
dz3866 zboy Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Join Date: May 2005 Location: US California Posts: 147	Re: BOV: From design to implementation Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton) Huh? Only if he wants to continue a deeper descent... once there loss of all diluent means zippo to me other than that I am calling the dive. What use is diluent when you are ascending and have 02 and a working loop? Maybe by "Newly Trained" you mean "Inadequately Trained". Yep, those folks better carry enough open circuit SCUBA gas so's they can leave the rig at home... . Maybe for them on that day, it's sensible. Heck's it's probably always* sensible. But that's not the experts method, sorry..... Maybe we ought to start an "experts forum" by invitation where we can discuss expert methods without offending the sensibilities of the "rebreathers for dummies" folks? Dunno where we get these ideas.... Diluent? We need it for descent. Once there it's just extra. My Mark-15 spheres are usually jacked to 300 BAR.... meaning that I am carrying 60 cubic feet of gas, split between 02 and diluent. For a 130 foot dive that diluent is air. I dunno, but I bet I can do my deco from my 130 foot dives with that gas OC no sweat. I see guys all the time deeper than that with a single side slung 40 of some sort of gas for their bailout... who has more gas accessable open circuit and who has a better selection? Who is to say where I carry that gas? Rebreather cops who want to SEE IT outside of the shell of my rig? Give me a break... Dave (Been to over 200 with an OMG 02 rig and a spare air for diluent, dig?) (and no, DON'T do this at home...) man Dave for someone who on another thread says he wont post a report and pics because he is being attacked, you sure dish it out!! you say inadequately trained, rebreathers for Dummies folks, these people are getting the only training available, for the kiss lets say (ANDI) and now the rEVO (ANDI) you promote a rebreather and say no one will get one without training (ANDI) then you dog the people for having the training that you know wont change to your way overnight, Make up your mind you sound like a hypocrite
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23rd April 2007, 00:43	#30 (permalink)
Dave Sutton Diveshop of Horrors Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss MK 15.X rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Narragansett, Rhode Island and Hackettstown, New Jersey Posts: 2,689	Re: BOV: From design to implementation Quote: (Originally Posted by dz3866) man Dave for someone who on another thread says he wont post a report and pics because he is being attacked, you sure dish it out!! I'm tired. Give me a break. One subject has nothing to do with another. OFF TOPIC, but to answer... Bailout: Divers ought to be able to access all of their gas open circuit. This includes their onboard gas. Why not? This is a no brainer. AP Valves sets up their rigs with an auto-air for this reason, for the diluent anyhow. It takes one quick-connect hose to make that true for the 02 also. I dunno why anyone could disagree. Want to disagree? Next subject. Training: Much of the "industry" training is dumbed down. Everyone knows this. It has to be, otherwise it would exclude a number of people who, if trained under a simple system, will perform adequately. Making it too complex and too expert weeds out too many folks. This is the same in many other areas, not just diving. The basics need to be the main part of the training, the rig-specific stuff is second. Expert techniques: You suggested that I keep expert techniques to myself as use of these methods by others is irresponsible. I disagree. folks are going to figure it out one way or another. So be it. Rebreather specific training: There is NO REASON that each rebreather course needs to cover the core modules of PPO2 theory, etc. There is NO REASON why a simple crossover coure from one mCCR to another shuld take more than half a day if the diver is WELL TRAINED in the basics to begin with. I suspect that the latter is often not true. rEvo: Great rig. Dunno why folks are more worried about how I got mine as compared to how I find it to dive. The subject of "how I got mine" is of no value to anyone else... the subjct of "what is it like" is of interest to many. It's hard to be polite when you're being given shit. I always try.... Any controversy here? Don't mean to make one up. Gonna crash.... Dave __________________ "Changes in Lattitudes, Changes in Attitudes, Nothing remains quite the same".... www.nobubblediving.com
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