Quote: (Originally Posted by
Genesis)

Alex, we keep talking past each other and I'm not sure why.
Because there are a number of separate but interconnected issues and we are not being clear enough with each other in separating them.

In fact, they are not separable, as a CCR is so tight a system, a decision on one matter when considered from many different angles, usually affects other parts of the system. If I break your post up into neuron sized elements, perhaps we can overcome this communications barrier (at least it will make it easier to point out where my neurons may be miswired):
Quote: (Originally Posted by
Genesis)

Yes, I understand that connectors should be waterblocked and that's not the issue (unless you're looking at the Inspiration's design as the "holy grail", which I think we both agree it is not!)
My point is simply that any time you have a failure of an electrically-powered part of the unit any portion of the unit which could be damaged by exposure to the unregulated voltage rail must be assumed to be compromised until proven otherwise.
I take a different view. That is, ensure the design does not allow one failure to spread to other sections.
For example, water in the handset should not affect the base. It should continue functioning completely normally.
Quote: (Originally Posted by
Genesis)

You keep coming back to sensors getting wet like this is the whole story. I'm not sure why, because its NOT. Your design (and everyone else's) has at least some 1 ATA enclosured components or hard encapsulation (and usually both.) You cannot assume that these enclosures have retained their integrity after a failure in the circuitry has been detected, nor that anything "behind" that circuit (which does not have multi-point validation) remains intact.
Sensors are not the whole story, but an important element (and the theme of this thread).
The only things we keep at 1 ATM are batteries and the rear face of pressure sensors: we keep both of them outside the rebreather in thick stainless steel tubes. They can fail in any way they like, they are not going to affect any other electronics, other than reducing battery life. We are opposed to hard encapuslation (it causes failures).
It is this approach that gives us fundamental differences in the way we look at a problem. It affects trivial things like how to route the O2 sensors, how much ESD protection to provide, what failure modes to cover (i.e. all). We would both agree there is a lot of nonsense posted about the cost of these things: most cost very little - a resistor here, a buried track somewhere else. Added up, it is not a lot but together they implement a certain philosophy or method in approaching the design.
Quote: (Originally Posted by
Genesis)

My specific concern in this context is the sensors when there are two or more devices connected to one set - e.g. two handsets which share a set of three sensors for O2 content determination.
A good case in point. We do not connect multiple devices to one sensor, except through high valued resistors. This prevents one failure in one set of electronics from affecting anything else.
Quote: (Originally Posted by
Genesis)

My argument is that IF the first handset fails then you cannot assume the components connected to it are ok unless none of them would be damaged by imposing the unregulated rail across any part of them.
I believe we meet the latter condition, and the latter condition is the correct design objective for safety critical systems. At the sensor end, we prevent the situation where any rail can ever be across any of them, by taking proper ESD precautions, protecting the sensor from the electronics using a series resistor, and the electronics from a new sensor plugged in with an open load using the same resistor/diodes, burying the track and guarding it with ground so a conductive electrolyte (e.g. water from a flooded scrubber, or sea water), cannot put a potential onto the sensor wires. Safe design means the design should be resiliant, not just tell you that it has failed. When underwater you may not have another bail out option left: you want the rebreather to just work - tell you to bail out by all means, but keep you alive until you can.
Quote: (Originally Posted by
Genesis)

situation For O2 cells this is never true,
Please tell me the situation where it is not true for the system I just described, and we have published right down to circuit level. We try to design such that the assertion you are making is not true.
Quote: (Originally Posted by
Genesis)

so if the first controlling/display device fails you must assume that all of the O2 cells are now invalid - rendering the "secondary" or "backup" control/display device irrelavent.
A deduction based on a false assumption.
Quote: (Originally Posted by
Genesis)

The exception is where you KNOW why the first one failed (e.g. out of battery power.) The majority of the time you DO NOT know why it failed while you're underwater. You may SUSPECT a cause but most of the time you cannot be certain.
You do not have to know why a failure has occured, or what failure, at all. One just needs containment of the failure and enough true redundancy so that when the failure happens, the system can operate as normal. For example, our using two batteries on the base and one in the handset, all packaged separately, and wired such that any one battery can power the whole system, and we monitor power supplies and shut them down when a failure occurs: all this is published in circuit diagrams and circuit review in our Open Revolution submission.
Quote: (Originally Posted by
Genesis)

Good engineering and safety practice says that if in doubt you call it broken until you know otherwise.
On the surface during pre-dive checks, I could not agree with you more. But underwater, I disagree. In a recent fatal accident review we did, the fatality occurred because the software would not let the unit perform its life critical function when it was powered up underwater with a fault condition present.
Quote: (Originally Posted by
Genesis)

(Yes, I know this is getting into design philosophy - but that's what ALL unit designers adopt FIRST - right?)
100% right, which is why this debate is worthwhile. It is also part of the concept behind the Open Revolution initiative: that each company, not just Deep Life, publish sufficient data to prove the safety of their products, that way the whole community designing rebreather controls can adopt the best practices and best design philosophies. I saw another post that made the good point that a rebreather controller should either demand everything from the user, or nothing. Where do you stand on this?
Cheers,
Alex