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Old 12th November 2005, 08:37   #18 (permalink)
AD_ward9
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Re: Open source, I have Questions.

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mitty, W)
A few questions are bouncing around upstairs, hope someone can shed some light.
Picture;
http://test.rebreatherworld.com/gallery/files/6/2/5/RBunit011.JPG
Shows the two extendair carts in place, how is it sealed to prevent bypass? Most Micropore units have a sealing ring required, there isn’t one here.
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You have a lot of good questions. If I can answer them in turn:

The use edge seals, like a oil can on a car. For the prototypes we simply glued draft excluder around the Micropore cylinders.

The main problem with this was the things were hard to get out.

The Micropore seals waste 11% of the usuable area. We have a variant of this which gets it down to about 2% which we are using on Proto IV.

There was a lot of debate about how to handle the notch on the Micropore canister. It acts like another pore. Ignoring it means about 0.2% of the gas glow bypasses the scrubber. Proto II and III dealt with it, but now we are going to simply use a keying notch to partially block it so bypass is about 0.05% of flow.
Quote: (Originally Posted by Mitty, W)
Picture;
http://test.rebreatherworld.com/gallery/files/6/2/5/RBunit024.JPG
I assume this is assembled, same question on sealing the carts but what are those plastic barrel thing

This is Proto II, used for flow, WOB and condensation testing (hence aluminium for worst case), so the O2 sensor was replaced by nylon rod the same diameter. You see the real sensors in Proto III.
Quote: (Originally Posted by Mitty, W)
Picture;
http://test.rebreatherworld.com/gallery/files/6/2/5/protoIIIa.jpg
Shows the lung, with two 'P' ports on it but this doesn’t seem to match the Rebreather unit????
Am I missing something here?

The bag was used to test two different flow paths, so either has a plug in one port for the serial scrubber config shown here or has the scrubber with the second port (parallel config). The plug saved us doing two bags of each type. We have now settled on a parallel scrubber and abandoned the serial scrubber, after a lot of testing and trying out different variants.
Quote: (Originally Posted by Mitty, W)
Also are they tyraps on the ADV thingy? Are they holding the diaphram on?
It is an ADV and auto shut off valve. See:
http://www.deeplife.co.uk/files/auto_shut_off.pdf

We have now separated the components physically, as the cord was hard to reach. Proto IV has the shutoff valve on the scrubber, the ADV is one which is extremely resistant to freeflow and on the inhale bag, the exhale vent is moved from the mouthpiece to an exhale bag, as even if the exhale hose fails the mushroom still means all is breathable. However, the fully integrated version works.

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mitty, W)
Picture;
http://test.rebreatherworld.com/gallery/files/6/2/5/proto_II_in_raw_state.jpg
What did it cost you to prototype II? Was it cheaper in ally than plastic?
We used ally for Proto II because the purpose was to do flow testing, WOB testing and condensation worst case evaluation. Ally has much worse condensation than Delrin or Kynar, and was used to develop the flood recovery system seen on Proto III: Proto III was made from Delrin.

In terms of costs, we have our own workshops but Delrin costs about twice that of machining ally.
Quote: (Originally Posted by Mitty, W)
Page;
http://www.deeplife.co.uk/files/One_Set_of_Solutions_to_CCR_Safety.pdf
Shows 5yr lifespan O2 cells, any information on these?
Closely guarded secret at the moment.
This is a galvanic sensor from an established, though unusual, sensor manufacturer with who we work.

We are trying to remove Galvanic sensors entirely using a Sol-Gel sensor for both O2 and CO2. This would be disposable, as well as having a very long life.

For the first versions, it will take the same Galvanic sensor as on the Evo or sensors a third party supplies that are rated with a 5 year life. We have not convinced ourselves that this is really 5 year - it is 5 year without abuse, but we are hard people to convince that with salt, muck, moisture it is 5 years without actually fitting a load and waiting. They certainly last 3 years.
Quote: (Originally Posted by Mitty, W)
Page;
http://www.deeplife.co.uk/files/One_Set_of_Solutions_to_CCR_Safety.pdf
In particular the "Save the Looney" part disturbs me somewhat.
  • Beyond allowed depth, or mix, unit warns user
  • If warning is ignored, then tells user it will shut off the gas
  • If warning is ignored, it keeps shutting auto-shutoff valve momentarily making it very uncomfortable to breath
This seems to be an accident in the making. According to the incident reports compiled by Brian Cumming, a great deal of problems occurred due to the perception of equipment failure. The over-breathing of regulators and all the panic inducing complications of equipment miss-use. The above would induce such panic, especially in one who has a potential problem already which is why they are deeper than planned????
If this is indeed aimed at numpties, and all failures etc. Then the "only competent users" is a bit of an oxymoron. IMHO.
Shutting the gas off forces the user onto open circuit.

That is, when the shutoff valve closes, it closes the loop. The ADV supplies gas, which is vented to clear the loop. The user still breaths but can see they are on open circuit, so it does not endanger the user.

The situations where "You are a loony!" message comes up is if the unit is dived without checks or after failing checks.

The "Too deep!" message comes up if the depth limit for the unit is exceeded. The unit can be configured for an particular depth limit, including in the expedition version, unlimited. The expo version has WOB assistance using a fan and various other features.
Quote: (Originally Posted by Mitty, W)
Reviewing the auto shut off auto bail valve, how would the system respond to insufficient bail gas?
It warns when gas is under 50 bar and further warnings every 10 bar.

Remember, the valve pushes the unit into semi-closed unless the loop is completely unrecoverable (that is, exhaling clears the loop, and if the loop is then breathable the valve opens).
Quote: (Originally Posted by Mitty, W)

How would you go semi-closed to increase endurance in the event of a bail gas equipment failure?
To override it, just pull the override lever.
Quote: (Originally Posted by Mitty, W)
I don’t see a way of manually attaining a SC configuration without the electrickery going mental. As i understand it, the manual override keeps popping out if the Rebreather isn’t happy.
Until the loop is breathable, the user has to have pressure on the manual override. When it is breathable it resets automatically. The design is shown in the presentation mentioned above.
Quote: (Originally Posted by Mitty, W)
The fan that is fitted inside the loop, this is used in the same loop that will be pure oxygen?
It is brushless.
Quote: (Originally Posted by Mitty, W)
Sounds dodgy. Do you have a prototype?
Yes, but the size of the fan is an embarrasement just now. I will do some pictures and post them. The main issue is how to get enough pressure to be useful and keep the fan and its power consumption low.
Quote: (Originally Posted by Mitty, W)
Same document, it states;1.
  1. Without predive checks, user cannot dive unless they manage to get to below 10m. When they are doing this, the unit tries to inflate the breathing bag to max
That 10m is the most critical for pressure related injuries, burst lung anyone?
Burst lungs occur if someone forgets the first rule of diving: breath in, breath out.

There is overpressure on the exhale bag which will be venting continuously, and the breathing loop is shut (unit is on O.C.). It is quite hard to leave the surface in this configuration, unless they are weighted really heavily in which case the system has simply put them on O.C. until 10m.
Quote: (Originally Posted by Mitty, W)
Last one, in the document;
http://www.deeplife.co.uk/files/How_Rebreathers_Kill_People.pdf
The failures listed in the "incident reports", failures 4,6,7,9, and 13. Risking being judgmental, they sound like user error, only seen this when the foolhardy set up their kit wrong or have too little experience. Would this not be better resolved by improving training standards?
13 has killed people. Some of these may be manifestations of failures 1 or 2, but training can program a user to always switch the unit on if there is clear evidence that users are dying because they forgot to switch it on.

Remember, the user has done a pile of checks, may feel very seasick, jumps overboard and fins hard in a current before descending. Did he switch the unit off after doing the checks? Looking at the displays on a rocking boat made him more seasick.

In the design of aircraft control, reactor control and other critical areas, if something that can be done to prevent a user error turning into a critical area. Why kill the guy just because he felt really seasick? Or his mate switched off the unit for him to "save the batteries"?
Thanks very much for going through things so thoroughly.

I´m just trying to finish off that last bit of FMECA cleanup so we can go live with this during this week. No doubt there will be many more questions, including things we have not got right. Your careful and thorough review is much appreciated.

Cheers
Alex
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